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Мадукар: 'Wake me up'
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Look! Immediate Release

Let it be peace amongst all beings in the universe, let it be peace with
you here, let it be peace.


I`m very happy you came here, so many people.
It is a very special day, because you are interested to find out: Who am I?
You ask yourself: Who am I beyond this person, beyond my education, beyond
my job, my ideas and plans? Who am I really?
I did not come to bring you another teaching, neither another religion,
nor another philosophy, because you have had already enough of this. I
simply came to tell you: Relax! Everything is fine! (laughter)
You don`t even need to relax. The person might enjoy to relax, the body
and mind might enjoy to relax, but your true being, the essence, who you
are, doesn`t need to relax, because you are peace itself. This
understanding is very precious.
Traditionally, spiritual people had to live up to rules and morality, they
had to practice and study a lot, to suffer a lot, they needed to meditate
and to do exercises, Yoga exercises, Tantra exercises, whatever and
praying, chanting, believing, practicing for many lives, at least for one
life, and if you believe in reincarnation for ten thousand lives. Until
you meet somebody who tells you: You are already free! Look!
This is very special. Before you had to go somewhere, into the jungle, in
a cave, and if you were very lucky, you met a master, who had this
understanding of absolute freedom, because most gurus don`t know this.
They teach you that you have to do this, you have to do that. And this
cannot be freedom. Whenever you have to do something, it is not freedom.
Some of you don`t need words, because your whole life, you have known that
what your teachers tell you, and your parents, and what the church tells
you, is not absolute Truth. They all try to give you their best, but it`s
not absolute Truth. Your source, You are something precious, which cannot
be described in words. Whenever we start using words a concept emerges.
Ideas and concepts mean religion. Religion is great if you can believe, if
you are satisfied with promises of the future. Because the religious guys
tell you, if you behave well here now, if you behave the way we want it,
then in heaven you will be fine. For me this was not enough. I said: "If
there is heaven, then heaven must be now, heaven must be here." I was not
satisfied, neither with religion, nor with philosophy and psychology. I
wanted to find out what absolute Truth is. And ever since I know, I show
everybody who wants to find out: It is You!


(birds are singing outside and inside a coffee-machine is making some noise)

After I had dropped in this silence of the heart, words took over with the
transmission: `Birds are singing and the coffee-machine too.` But this
deepness, this silence of our heart, which hears the birds and the
coffee-machine and which sees thoughts, feels relaxation or tension in the
body, this silence, this witness, cannot be explained by words.
From a certain age onwards, we concentrate our whole life on these
experiences of our body. We concentrate with our thoughts and we
absolutely identify with that, because we got encouraged by our parents
and teachers that this is natural, that is how life is. And we forgot what
we really are.
If these thoughts and your physical experiences have brought you absolute
happiness, then I`m satisfied. I`m not coming here to take away your
happiness. If this procedure makes you absolutely happy, eternally happy,
great! But if it doesn`t make you happy, not totally happy, then you have
to look and find out who you are, who you really are. And who can say:"I`m
absolutely happy?" I have not met anybody, except for one man, my master,
he was happy. Why? Because he knew who he is.
As we identify with our moods, with how we feel, sometimes good, sometimes
even better, sometimes not that good, depressed or frustrated, there will
always be this game of positive and negative. But if you really look and
ask "What is my essence, in which these changing states take place?" Then
you will rediscover your true nature and you will not be touched, neither
by goodness, nor by badness.
Sounds interesting? (laughter among the visitors)

Questioner: And now the trick!

Madhukar: The trick?

Q: Yeah, how do you get there?

M: Be here.

Q: I am here.

M: You see, like you, by all means, I wanted to know this trick. I wanted
to have this understanding. So I was around this master, my master, which
at that time I not even called master, because my importance, my ego,
didn`t allow me to say this. I was very independent, very proud of being
powerful, and very happy. I was even happy of my frustrations. So I was
very proud and did not call him master, but still I would stick around and
try to get this trick. And in these two years a lot of things happened.
Then one day, I wrote down all the doubts I had and I asked him seventeen
questions, very important questions, because I wanted to get rid of any
doubt I had. Later, I listened to this interview many times. I would say,
out of these seventeen questions, only one was nonsense, one was stupid;
all the other sixteen were very important questions. And on top of it,
after these seventeen questions, a poem came up, I wrote a poem. He wanted
to answer these questions in satsang. At that time he wrote it down,
because he was not hearing that well anymore. He was 84 years old, very
powerful, but his hearing was not so well. So I was sitting with him face
to face and it took two hours. So in the very end, when all my doubts had
gone, then the poem came. And after this poem he said: "Now I will give
you my secret."

This trick you want to have? You have not spent two years with me, you
have not asked seventeen important questions and you didn`t give me a poem
yet. So you give me nothing and I should show you the trick? He just gave
me this trick, you see.


Q: I know the trick now.

M: What do you know?

Q: There is nothing to know, just to look.

M: No, that isn`t true. You did not understand. The first part is right:
"There is nothing to know". Then you say: "Just to look." No, you have to
understand: "Who is the looker? Who looks? Who is looking?" This you have
to understand.
I did not answer him, I just said: "Thank you."

Q: Well, thank you.

M: You don`t have to copy me. It doesn`t work. It happens naturally. I
just told you the story and my story is not better than yours.
Thankfulness, tremendous thankfulness happened to me. And through his
grace, mysteriously, this transmission worked. In my case it worked in
such a way that afterwards really dramatic things happened in my life.
They had to happen, because they were old, millions of years old, they had
to manifest. Some things and events have to manifest before you are free.
I don`t wish you these kinds of happenings. I wish you only wonderful
happiness. Somehow mysteriously, this transmission worked, because it`s a
very powerful lineage. Through Papaji and his master Ramana Maharshi, this
transmission came to rest in me and tremendous things happened. It`s just
a very powerful lineage.

So, first you have to clear out any doubt you might have. These you have
to bring out, otherwise, if some doubt remains, it will keep poisoning
you. As it is said: "One dead fish poisons the whole pond." If you have
one dead fish in a fishpond, you have to take it out, otherwise all other
fishes will die too. So first clear out your doubts, then the
understanding: "I don`t have to know anything", is already very good, "I
have to know nothing!" So what remains? Knowledge is gone. Mind is gone.
What remains?

Q: Well, I want to avoid getting into wordplay, but I would call it
consciousness if I have to give it a name. It is not an object, I mean,
it`s a feeling.

M: Feeling is thought!

Q: Yes, that`s the problem.

M: That`s the problem, you see, everybody talks about feeling. Since the
seventies everybody talks about feeling. Before that you didn`t hear about
it much. Now everybody has to feel, it became popular. And the wives liked
it, because they could tell their husbands: "You have to feel more."
Feeling is just an old experience, which is still stored in your brain and
in your body. So who feels? Who? This you have to put your attention to,
in stead of putting your attention on feelings. Just put your attention on
Self itself: Who feels? This attention you correctly call `consciousness`.
When consciousness is pointed to the Self itself, it will blossom and
purify, but instantly. This understanding is instant.
Also in my case this understanding was instant and it manifested in the
form of trust.
I trusted him, even though my life was not immediately perfect after I met
him. Somehow, I was still a slave of feelings and thoughts. But the
understanding, that this man speaks the truth, was immediate. It made
absolute sense to me.

I was very lucky that I trusted the man, who did not sell another religion
or did not sell another philosophy, another teaching. He was just
emanating freedom. And freedom can never pollute you, because freedom is
freedom. Everything else pollutes you; everything else puts weights on
your shoulders: knowledge, teachings, practices, but freedom can never
pollute you.

Second Questioner: There is some confusion in me and it is about this
subject of meditation and knowing "who am I?". I was in Poona and did an
intensive satsang with someone, who was also in the lineage of Papaji and
Ramana Maharshi. We focused on this "who am I"-question for a month and
when I came out of that I was and still am tremendously grateful for this

M: I can see that, it shines from your face.

Q: ... for the whole thing, the revelation that I saw, felt, yet not felt.
So I can say that, during these weeks, I did recognize `who am I`, but
there is still confusion. I happen to come across another guru, lately.
Continuously he is all around me, I see books of him and people who are
members of his sangha. He advises that to be one with God, you need to
meditate and he prescribes yoga and all kinds of practices, whereas I
understood it is enough to just know who I am? I mean, when I realize
That, then there is nothing more to do or say, right? Now I hear this
other guru and these seem to be contradicting messages.

M: Definitely.

Q: Could you say what you think, feel, whatever?

M: I don`t think, I don`t feel, so you have to ask questions, then there
will be an answer.

Q: Well, this was the question.

M: No, that is not a question. I`m not here to judge, you see.

Q: No, that is not what I`m asking for but the question is:  what to do? I
somehow know there is nothing to do, so I could answer myself, but I mean,
I only have one priority in life and that is, that I want to be one with
God. All else is really not important in this moment and it is such a
tremendous longing. What to do? I canít make it clearer than this.

M: You don`t need to do anything. Understanding who you are, is the most
precious diamond there is. So if you understand `I am this diamond`, why
should you start to polish marvels? A marvel is also very beautiful, but
if you start to polish it, the dust will even be unhealthy for you. If you
really understand who you are, you will not get attracted to somebody, who
tells you that you have to do something. But this might be a tendency in
you, an old tendency, because you have been a yogi, you have been a
meditator for many lives. So there are some desires. Furthermore, you have
to understand, that already for thousands of years, we in the west have
this incredible program, that we have to do something to reach, to get, to
become somebody. So I`m tremendously grateful, that I got attracted to
this absolute Truth, this most precious diamond, that I realized: I am
That. So there is no need to do anything. But certainly, if I feel like
running, I will run. If I feel like doing yoga on the beach, I will do
yoga. And if I feel like sitting in a certain posture to meditate, I will
meditate. There is no harm in this, if you know who you are. But I`ve seen
many people having this precious diamond in their hands and afterwards
they went to certain masters and they lost it again, getting confused
again. They had this diamond in their hands and they were not able to
appreciate it. They exchanged it for marvels and they went back into
confusion, into doing and purifying. What a pity!

Not everything that comes into your life and is around you all the time is
meant for you to live it. I`ll give you an extreme example now, which has
nothing to do with this teacher you mentioned, whom I don`t know, so I
can`t speak about him. I can only say, that no master will ever tell you:
"You have to meditate", just teachers. So, a very extreme example, I live
in the center of Amsterdam and whenever I walk in the streets, somebody
offers me drugs. Heroin, cocaine, whatever. I don`t take it, even if it
comes into my life everyday. I could tell myself: "Well, it comes
everyday, so there might be a deeper meaning." I meet them all the time, I
know some of these junkies better than my aunt, you see. I haven`t seen my
aunt for years, but these guys I know, what they offer and what it has
done to them and what it would do to me. There is no attraction

Q: I find it extremely hard not to do, to believe this message of `not

M: Because you should not believe it, you see, believing is not enough.
You have to look, you have to look deeper. Believing is not enough. If you
believe, there might be some effect for some time, but it cannot be
eternal. Belief will not free you.

Q: That`s clear.

M: So then you have to inquire again, "Who wants to do?" That you want to
do, is not bad, it is a program of your personality, a program of your
brain and your body, your genes even. So it would be unnatural to say, "I
don`t want to do". You have been programmed like this for many lives, so
naturally the attraction comes. It belongs to your person. Now you have to
look: "Who wants? Who is this I who wants?"
I never tell people: don`t do this, don`t do that. If people want to
meditate, they can meditate. It`s just that if you don`t know who you are,
if you don`t understand that you are already free now, then meditation
will bind you. It will make you addicted, like somebody who gets addicted
to heroin. Some people get addicted to meditation, to yoga and tantra,
whatever, and they never arrive. You can arrive in something, like I
arrived in, what in the yogic past was called, "enlightenment", a full
kundalini-awakening. That is the dream of a yogi, so I must have practiced
it for many lifetimes. And when it manifested, it was of course
tremendously beautiful, very precious. I`ve read about this experience and
nobody seems to have experienced it like I did. Some people already start
writing a book as soon as they just have a little flash in their brain.
They see some lights and ?????" I`m a teacher!"
You have to inquire: "What do I want?" Do I want a sense of community
without the need to do anything; or do I want freedom, absolute Freedom.

Q: I want that.

M: You want That? You are That. You are.

Afterwards I could see and accept that even this so-called enlightenment
was just a phenomenon, a state, a very beautiful and holy state, a
supernatural state. Many teachers get caught in their experiences, these
supernatural experiences, and a new religion is born, a new sangha, a new
community. Of course one could say: "Self has time, so it doesn`t matter
in how many lifetimes I realize, make another loop again, preparing,
training." But you, your person here, you would like to be free now. Then
only accept the most precious diamond. Refuse anything else, even if it
means that you will be alone. You have to go for this, as it`s the most
precious. If I go to a party and everybody is taking drugs, I just say no.
Then people start feeling uneasy, because I`m not playing the same game
they`re playing, so the friendship ends. I`m no longer welcome and I`m no
longer attracted to stay, because they enter into a different state, which
is attracting them. I`m not interested in it, because I`m full, I`m happy.
So I will not be a part of that community. Sometimes it can be somewhat
tough to be alone. Others are having a party and you are alone.


Somebody else? If you don`t speak English that well, you can also ask a
question in Dutch.

Third questioner: You are talking about freedom, can you explain what you
mean by the word "freedom"?

M: Freedom cannot be explained, it can only be pointed at. I`m not talking
about outer freedom. I don`t tell you that you have to change your life,
that you should leave your partner and have many girlfriends, for example.
Some people think this is freedom. Your lifestyle, your likes and
dislikes, have nothing to do with it. I do not speak about outer life,
that is up to you, that just happens. You don`t need to change anything in
your life.

Q: Yes, I understand that.

M: Ok, so we have cleared this part. Itís a very good question, because
you create a dilemma for me. Even to talk about freedom is a little stupid
as it implies imprisonment. And I tell you: ìYou are free already.. You
have always been free. There has never been imprisonment.î So I shouldnít
say anything. And sometimes I donít, but I have come to Heerenveen for the
first time. So out of a certain respect to you people, as some people may
not know what it means, if I come here and sit like this (Madhukar sits in
silence to demonstrate), I speak about freedom.

You will be surprised, but except for you and me, there are many people,
who believe that they are bound, that they are imprisoned, suffering with
their bodies, their relations, their work, their housing, whatever... and
they try to prove to me that they are not free. Therefore I speak about

Q: Yes, but I don`t feel free either.

M: If you say: "I don`t feel free", there must be something that binds
you. Show me your handcuffs or show me your braincuffs, so we can see if
they are real. Then you will have convinced me. Or you may find out that
they are not real. Then this freedom will make sense, it will be
immediately here.

Q: Maybe a feeling of not feeling free?

M: Well, this "maybe" we have to cut out first, otherwise we can never
arrive. There`s a decision you have to make now, having this feeling of
"not free". If the feeling is "maybe", then we should not talk about it.

Q: Okay.

M: So, a feeling of "not being free"? And in the night when you sleep?

Q: Then I`m free.

M: Then you are free, okay. So you can already see that this feeling of
being "not free" is not permanent. It`s there only sometimes, and that is
a basic understanding, that everything that comes and goes cannot be
absolute Truth, because when we talk about freedom, we don`t talk about
outer freedom ,as we both agreed on. We talk about something that is
eternal. States that come and go are not eternal, therefore I would say
right away that it`s imagination. Now I just have to prove that to you.

Q: Yes please.

M: While you sleep, your body rests, your brain rests. Sometimes it`s
active and you enter a dream-state and in this a feeling of "being not
free" can also happen. So even in a dream you create the same states. You
could create this entire situation here, that you sit here with the
microphone in your hand, with all these people around you, and you would
experience exactly the same. Even if you`ve never seen it before, you can
just imagine the same scene as you imagine reality now. That`s
interesting, but that`s just a sideline of where I want to lead you now.
There is something, which sees your thoughts or what you call a feeling of
"being not free". So here is a deeper dimension, something deeper that
sees a feeling "not free". Until now, you might have identified with this
feeling saying: "I am not free." Now you can look, you see "I" and you see
a feeling, which says "not free". And naturally, if you are feeling
"unfree", either you become frustrated and you resign, or you try to be
free, you try to do something. You try to meditate, to change your
girlfriend, whatever it may be, you try to change something. Here you are
feeling "unfree" and that is not really what you want. You want to be
happy. Everybody here wants to be happy. So now you came to someone
experiencing this, and I use this experience to tell you that if you
continue to concentrate on this feeling of "unfree", it will not help you.
But if you turn around and concentrate on this "I", who sees or feels,
then something can happen. What will happen? First, you will find out that
until now you have accepted this "I" as a person, which has been
identified with states of changing feelings. Let`s say you are feeling
"unfree", and the telephone rings. Somebody calls you and you happily talk
with him. You don`t feel "unfree" that very moment. Then the phonecall is
finished and again you sit alone in your apartment, feeling extremely
"unfree". So these are changing states. And you see this. So who is this
"You"? Who is this "I"? You concentrate on this and you will find out,
that this "I" is just made up of feelings and thoughts, which is the same.
It is just imagination. And there is some consciousness, some awareness
that sees this "I". Now you go deeper and you do not even concentrate on
this "I" anymore, you concentrate on this Self. Are you following me?

Q: Yes, but identification with the sadness and depression is always
coming back and I cannot become free from it.

M: It always came back. You have to change your grammar. It always came
back until now. Don`t program it into the future. It did not work until
now, because until now you were concentrating on this feeling of "unfree".
Now I tell you to concentrate on "I", not on the feelings. Do it right
now! You sit here? That`s obvious. Can we agree on this? Are you here?

Q: Yes.

M: You are here. I am here. So we are both here. This we can agree on. All
right, so what is here?

Q: What is here? I am here, you are here, a lot of people are here.

M: Ok, I agree. And are you still concentrating on this feeling "unfree"?
Right now, you don`t concentrate on this feeling "unfree", so do you feel

Q: I feel sad.

M: Ok, so let sadness be there too. Sadness is your guest. Sadness visits
you. Is it always here or only now?

Q: No, it`s not always here.

M: Is it because of me?

Q: No.

M: Because I`m not wearing a colorful shirt? You were sitting here all
this time being sad and you didn`t immediately ask for help? You came
here, paid the entrance fee and were sad? And you didn`t immediately say:
Hey, help, I`m sad? That`s strange. How long would you like to carry that
with you? How long would you like to continue like this?

Q: Not long, I hope.

M: Don`t hope. You have to look. Hope doesn`t help. Just throw it away
right now. You can give it to me if you want. I will take it with me to
Amsterdam. There is so much sadness there on the streets, that one more
bag of garbage doesn`t matter; you just give it to me. So whenever sadness
comes, you see there is a witness. Now you don`t concentrate on this
sadness. Neither do you imagine or try to get happiness. You simply
concentrate on your Self. Now you start smiling, that`s not a sign of

Q: It`s sort of a sad smile.

M: Is it your profession?

Q: No.

M: You don`t make money with it? You are not a clown in a circus? You`re
not a politician either? If you would be a clown or a politician you could
make money with a sad smile, but you are not earning money with it, so why
should you keep it?

Q: I don`t know? It`s simply there.

M: Where is there? Before you said it`s here, now you say it`s there.
Where is it?

Q: Somewhere in me.

M: What do you mean by "somewhere"? Where is it, in one of your legs, the
knee, your kidney? It`s an imagination. Therefore, dont try to change it.
If you like, you can even make it bigger and let it explode, because
certain parts have to explode. The sadness will come out at a certain
point. Or you just see that this sadness takes place in you and it comes
and goes. It changes, sometimes it`s more, sometimes less. And it`s
somewhere in your body, as you say. Now simply concentrate on this
consciousness that sees this. Do you follow? Check it out!

What is happening?

Q: I still feel sad.

M: Well, it must be very attractive to you if you like to keep it. It must
be very precious to you. It must give you something. What does it give
you? Do you feel special with your sadness? No, you are not special with
this sadness. Many people are sad, millions, BILLIONS! So you are not
special! Your experience with this sadness is, that it has always been
here, so this you program into the future, that it will always be here.
That`s your experience, isn`t it? How did it start?

Q: I haven`t always been sad.

M: So it started at a certain point. Something happened one time. Some
people go into therapies, they want to find out the reason why it
happened. For example, in your childhood your brother stole your big
chocolate cake and sadness from then on, something like this, your brother
was always mean to you, whatever. They always find something that happened
in your childhood. But I don`t do this. I just invite you to look right
now if this is your true Self. For those who are willing to look,
immediate release happens. It does happen in Satsang, instant healing.
It`s not part of my profession to be a healer, but I was in Switzerland
recently and there an old woman came to me, who had been in pain her whole
life. And she was willing to get rid of it. That`s very special. Most
people don`t like to give it away, because they have nothing else, nothing
but pain, sickness, sadness. What else have you got?

Q: There is also happiness.

M: Happiness is also here? Both are here, happiness and sadness? Okay,
they belong together, you see. So who sees happiness or sadness? Please
speak, this time is precious, make good use of it. So speak spontaneously,
don`t think!

Q: Consciousness!

M: Consciousness? I have never had the experience that consciousness is
happy or sad. In this consciousness, happiness takes place and sadness
takes place and as I say, if you concentrate either on happiness or
sadness, there will be suffering. If you know "I am Consciousness",
happiness will make you happy and sadness will make you sad, but you just
know "I am Consciousness". Then you are free, then circumstances come and
go and you are untouched. But it is not enough to just repeat the words.
It will be just a concept. Therefore I advise you, whenever you find
yourself in a state, enquire: "Who am I? Who sees this sadness? Who sees
this happiness?" And I promise you, that it will disappear.

Fourth questioner: In connection with self-realization, I came across
stories about kundalini-experiences. Sometimes they happen, sometimes they
don`t, but there must be something in it, because they so often go

Madhukar: That`s not true. You don`t need to have any kind of
kundalini-experience to realize who you are. I just mentioned it to
explain that I had to find out that this is NOT absolute Truth. It`s just
a phenomenon. That`s very important. I`m not telling this to separate
myself from people who don`t have these experiences. I tell you very
clearly that it`s not necessary! Go directly to your Heart, directly to
the Source and find out who you are. Don`t waste time with any kind of
experiences, not even these kundalini-experiences, go directly, instantly,
now. That`s the best. Then you don`t care what happens, because this "who
you are" is so clear, so precious, so much more beautiful than any
experience. And because it`s so very, very simple, it is overseen. It is
very simple. Therefore I can say that you are realized. If you waste your
time reading books about kundalini and try to have these experiences, then
you are bound to oversee what you are. So simply go directly. It`s not in
the past. Freedom is here and now. So even the desire for any kind of
experience, even a yogic experience, something that sounds very
attractive, is a hindrance, so I cannot advise you to waste any second to
this, because each second means separation and "who you are" is here, in
the eternal now.

Thank you for asking this question to clarify this, itís very important.

Q: I already knew the answer.

M: Great, but you serve everybody else in the room by clarifying this,
thank you.

Q: Could you also clarify what keeps me back from realizing my true Self?

M: Well, this time you give the answer right away, because you seem to
know already.

Q: It seems to be simply a habit, the habit of being a person.

M: Yes, the person is habitual, absolutely. The person is a robot.

Q: So it`s programmed?

M: Yes.

Q: And there is only one way of dealing with it and that is simply
throwing it away? It seems to be difficult.

M: Well, I don`t recommend this, otherwise people may throw themselves
into the lake afterwards and tomorrow in the newspaper it will read: "In
this satsang, afterwards everybody went to the lake throwing themselves
away." No, please enjoy your life, enjoy your body, enjoy whatever you do.

Q: Actually, that is one of the difficulties, something that puzzles me,
because if I realize who I am, then what is the point of going on living
as a human being?

M: Happiness, fun, enjoyment, beauty.

Q: Yes. Then it must be something simply to enjoy, to experience, a kind
of game?

M: You can see it like this. It is said to be Maya, illusion. You just
live your life. It`s fun, it`s good, it`s very simple. If you`re tired,
you sleep, if you`re hungry, you eat. It`s beautiful.

Q: Ok. I will go on with it.

M: Thank you.

Fifth questioner: If you ask the question "who am I", then at the end of
this, it seems there is only space. The question dissolves into space, but
is that the end of it or is space then seen by something even more subtle?
That`s what puzzles me.

Madhukar: Well, space is extremely subtle, space is empty. You have asked
a very good question, a very refined question, because there is still
something subtler, more subtle than the subtlest. This is You, and in This
the whole universe takes place, including space. The whole universe begins
and ends in This, every instant being created and dying. It`s just the
person that sees continuity. You say that you inquire into "who am I", and
there is space. That means your person has dissolved, your programs have
dissolved, your fears have dissolved, your frustration, your anger, your
desire, your happiness. Everything has dissolved in space ??????????????
Absolute Freedom. Enjoy this, melt entirely with This and you will still
be able to do whatever is needed in life. You have to jump into this
understanding. Then you will see if there is still a pull to go deeper and
then you follow this pull. But once you are there, when you have
completely melted with this space, you don`t need to do anymore, because
it will pull you in, Self will pull Self in. No doer is needed anymore.
Even this "who am I" is not really a doing anymore, once you have really
understood it. At first it might look like doing, like inquiring, but then
it`s just That, waking up from the dream. Now you just melt with this, you
celebrate this. And if something wants to pull you into something even
deeper than this subtle space, then it will take care of itself; you don`t
need to do anything. However, if you still feel the urge to do, if you
look into that "space" out of your mind, although it can be very inspiring
and relieving, it is not enough. So just let this happen.

Q: But the first thing you notice, when you wake up in the morning or when
you want to know who you are, is being present, but before being presence,
you were also That.

M: That is not my experience. My experience is: there is always presence,
but this presence is so subtle, that we are not aware of it. But still, if
you sleep in the night and the next morning someone asks you: "How did you
sleep?" Youíd say: "I slept very well." How do you know? You were gone,
how could you say you slept well? Because this witness never sleeps.

Q: That is your experience?

M: Thatís my experience, yes. Iíve ever been here and I will ever be here.

Sixth questioner: I donít know how to give words to it. You can say itís
finished, I can say itís finished; just like that, you can take the jump.
Then it will continue to be so for a little while and then there is
something I have to do.

Madhukar: Really? Are you totally convinced you have to do this. So you
like to be in sadness for some time and then again ìjump into itî as you
say? And then you like to go back to sadness? Like this, it will continue
for some time, thatís your program.

Q: Yes, it feels like whenever I go into silence, then when I come back, I
can feel the sadness more deeply.

M: Let`s do it now. You come into silence and then you see if there is
sadness. You say you can see it more deeply, so let`s go into it right
now. So if you are so experienced in it, it doesn`t matter if you will be
sad one more time.

Q: It`s eternal.

M: No, it is not eternal. I cannot accept this, because if it would be
eternal, then it wouldn`t come and go. What is eternal, is this underlying
Truth, That You Are. I don`t want to convince you. You have to experience
it, you have to see. So please tell me, is silence here now?


M: So now please speak out of whatever is. Don`t look back into
experiences you had before, nor of how it should be in the future, just
speak from now.

You are smiling, so I cannot see sadness. In this "now" there is no
sadness, so how is this possible?

Q: I think there is also sadness now.

M: No, you think in this very moment. Just before when you were here,
there was no sadness. Then you said: "I think", and then you were looking
back into past and sadness came. I could see that.

Q: In this smile, there was compassion for my own sadness, but the sadness
wasn`t gone.

M: It looks like compassion, but it`s addiction!

Q: Addiction?

M: Addiction, yes, it`s not compassion. It`s passion! It creates
suffering. But I know and respect that you defend this, because it has
given you a strong feeling of "I". You experienced, you felt yourself. At
least you were not dead. You felt yourself in this suffering and you
defend this and say: "This is also here, this is also God, this is also
good." And I respect this, because I was also defending certain personal
traits. You see, I was angry. So I looked why there is anger; I looked
into my childhood, and into my parents childhood, my nationality, into
middle age, and stone age, and manhood, and humanity. Deeper and deeper
and deeper, and there was still some anger. And I saw that it is unending,
it will never end. If this is your lineage, it will be unending. It is
what you would call "eternal", but it is illusion. The moment you stop
asking "Why?", but dare to ask, "Who? Who sees this?", something happens.
First, you might have to face this, anger in my case, in your case,
whatever you want to call it: "sadness" or "compassion for sadness". But
now you have to go deeper, "who sees this?" And don`t care if more sadness
comes. That`s okay for me, honestly, I don`t care. I know who you are, I
don`t care if there is sadness or happiness. I see who you are. Okay, my
human compassion likes you to be more at ease and happy, because who is
happy if you are sad. If you would be a poet, it might be useful. They
say: "I have to be sad, otherwise I cannot write poetry." So I like you to
be happy, but this is just my human program, my Christian program. From
the point of Self, I`m very much at ease with your suffering. But Self
also invites you to look and see if this is really "eternal", or if it`s
illusion. So you cannot lose anything, because if it is not Truth that I
speak, you can just continue and celebrate your sadness. So you don`t lose
anything. But if it is true, it will stay with you all the time, and when
the night is through, you will realize who you are in an instant. Then
sadness still might come, because it is a part of your program and it has
been stored in your body, in your cells, in your emotional self, and so
on. So this might continue, because the cause of this is very old. These
waves may continue for some time, but you will know, "I am not that", "I
am Here, I am that Truth, that Peace, that Silence". Then this celebration
of sadness will not stay with you. You will lose interest, like I lost
interest in anger, in celebrating its beauty, just because it comes with
such strength. Of course this is also divine. Nothing is not divine. But
you are deeper than any divinity: you are That, Absolute Truth.
So now Shiva is a little angry with me, because he loves anger too. All
these divine gods are a bit angry with me, but they cannot touch me. I`m
untouchable. And they envy me. They want to be in Satsang, because even
gods suffer. They have been longer than you in this mess: ten thousand
years of happiness and suffering.
So now, do you dare to ask this question: "Who sees?" It`s a risk!
It`s a risk, because this suffering, this sadness will not stay with you.
And it is very seldom, that is the experience of Ramana and of my master
Papaji, it is very seldom that somebody wants to be free. Maybe you are
the one, this very precious one, who wants to be free.